Tuesday, February 13, 2007

What did we just do? (4th period AP)













The Bible? We read out of the Bible?

What is it about the Book of Job that ties in with what we've been reading and discussing? What elements of literature are present in this book that make it a part of the tragic canon?

Here's what I want to know from each of you...

What is significant about the Christian use of the tragic character in the Book of Job? Discuss the similarities and differences between Job's experience/story and what Sophocles and Aristotle thought a tragedy should consist of. Is Job a tragic hero? Why or why not?

Answer the questions with full purpose and detail. Be honest here. Yes, others will see your posts and laugh hysterically, but who cares??? Be honest with yourself and be bold enough to include those thoughts here in the blogosphere. Respond to the questions for yourself, and then discuss (here) what your differing opinions and insights are with each other. Use quotes and examples from the text, using chapter:verse citations.

Remember to put your first name and last initial at the bottom of your post each time. No name or full name = NO CREDIT. Yes, that's ticky-tack. Yes, you're advanced students with advanced skills. First name, last initial.

29 comments:

BBAXLHS said...

One more thing...

Victor Hugo is quoted as having said, "Tomorrow, if all literature was to be destroyed and it was left to me to retain one work only, I should save Job."

What is so great about the Book of Job?

Anonymous said...

The significance of the tragic character in Job is that no matter how much Job lost or suffered as result of Satan and God's tests, he refuses to denounce God. By the end of the Book, Job is rewarded for his persistance of faith.

BBAXLHS said...

So how is that "tragic"?

Anonymous said...

The significance of the tragic character in Job is that no matter how much Job lost or suffered as result of Satan and God's tests, he refuses to denounce God. By the end of the Book, Job is rewarded for his persistance of faith.
The differences between the story in the Book of Job and the Greek tragedies we have been reading is that the end of Job is much more pleasant. In Job 42:10-42:17, Job's rewards for hsi faith are detailed. "The Lord restrored the fortunes of Job when he prayed for his friends, and the Lord increased all that Job had twofold." (Job 42:10) In both Oedipus and Antigone, the protagonists were not rewarded by the gods after they learned the error of their ways. In fact the Gods stripped them of family and title so that they would fall from their previous positions of prosperity. Thus, the character of Job doesn't fit the expectation of what Sophocles and Aristotle believed should be in a tragic story.

Anonymous said...

I believe Job is tragic because, just like Oedipus, he was unable to control what happened to him. For example, Oedipus, no matter how hard he tried, could not outrun his destiny. It was bound to happen and eventually it did. Similarly, Job could do nothing to prevent the chain of events that effected him. He did nothing wrong. His only crime was being too good, and yet, he had no control over the loss of his fortune, animals, and family. The fact that the two men could not control destiny or fate is something that links the two together. But is their righteousness and search for goodness and truth a tragic flaw? I like to believe so.

Miss H.

Anonymous said...

In a sense, I personally do think that Job's flaw was the fact that he was so perfect. If he had not been perfect, nothing would have happened to him, Satan would not have been interested in him. However, because he is so perfect makes him a "perfect" canidate. Also, because Job did not see any of this misfortune coming to him, it also makes him a Tragic Hero. As well as the fact that there was definately fortune reversal. At first Job is rich and happy as can be, then everything gets taken away from him, and slowly, Satan tortures him to try to get him to give up on God. Then because Job keep his faith in God, God rewards him and doubles his previous fortune. The significance of this Christian character is to be a role model so to speak for others by showing that as you may be sinless and great, but God may still test you and if you truly believe, you will always keep you faith in God. That is generally the moral of the story. That is another thing that tragedies have in common with the Bible is that there always tends to be a moral by the end of the story.
-Tia R.

BBAXLHS said...

Tia,

Can you find a "moral to the story" in Oedipus or Antigone? Are there characters in those two plays who serve as role models as well?

Mr. B

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

*The Book of Job ties in with all the tragedies because it is one itself. Job has many misfortunes, which is the result of a test given to him by Satan and the Lord.
*Job has a tragic downfall and in the end, it was all a test of his devotion to the Lord. And because he passed the test, he had a reversal and got back more than he had before.
*The Christian use of the tragic character of Job revolves, of course, around God. Job goes through a great downfall, but always ends up okay in the end because he never disgraced God. *There are many differences and similarities in the Book of Job and Sophocles writing. The Bible focuses on God's power and how the character realizes that power. While in Sophocles tragedies, the tragedy focuses on the main character and his tragic flaws. Although everything was taken away from Job, he never disgraced God or really himself. And in the other tragedies, the characters die or banish themselves from their homes. But then again, the Bible isn't as brutal as Greek tragedies!
*I believe that Job is a tragic hero. According to Aristotle, a tragic hero must be of noble blood, higher on the chain than someone else, and have a tragic flaw. Job is a very great man and is known for that. Satan, also believes that he is perfect because he is known for have great things and not because he fears God. Job's flaw is that others see him as perfect because he has so many amazing things, but he is perfect because he fears God (believes that God gave him everything and will take away everything, so therefore he does not disgrace him) and shuns evil. And with his flaw, Job has two drastic reversals of fortune.

Molly M.

Anonymous said...

Job is not a tragic hero because he did not have a "tragic flaw." You could argue that not having a flaw is what made him flawed, but then it would be pointless to have a tragic flaw as a requirement for a tragic hero because everyone would have a flaw, even if they were flawless.

I don't even think that Job went through a real reversal. Yes, he did go from good fortune to bad, then from bad to good, but his change of situation was only for a brief time. He ended up better off in the end than he was before God tested him, hardly a reversal.

Although Job's circumstance was sad and invoked pity from the reader, there are not enough other elements to make it a true Aristotelian tragedy.

The Greek tragedies were created to entertain an audience, win awards, and transition entertainment from drunken free-for-alls to civilized shows. They achieved this by using the tools Aristotle wrote about to make the audience connect to the story; to really make them think about how they would have reacted in the character's situations.

The book of Job was written to instill faith in people. To tell them, "stick with God and everything will be better for you in the end." It has more of a way of telling you what your morals should be like then causing you to question "what would I do."

Celine B

Anonymous said...

Tia,

I think that you are right on when you mention the fact that Job did not see any of his misfortune coming to him. That is one similarity that holds true to Oedipus (although he was obviously dense) that we haven't talked about. However, you say that there is a moral to the end of the story, and I was wondering how you thought the moral of Oedipus compared to the moral of Job- and Christianity for that matter. For example, Oedipus is saying that we can't change our fate and we shouldn't try. In a sense, the story of Job could be saying that God controls destiny, but isn't it saying something else as well?

Miss H.

Anonymous said...

Reversals happen to everyone. Even the perfect. While it is unlikely that we will lose or gain everything we have in one go, we know that some kind of reversal will happen to us. We don't know when. We don't know how or why. All we know is that one will happen in the future. Perhaps this is what is so appealing about the Book of Job.
Job is depicted as being better than everyone else and having more than everyone else. But he is then brought down to below our level. He becomes a withering man with only his boils to keep him company.
By the end the reader realizes that if he can gain everything back and more, then anyone can. We just shouldn't lose hope.

--Paddy M.

BBAXLHS said...

Does "Job" also teach the lesson that we SHOULD question our faith in whatever we have faith in?

Anonymous said...

In Oedipus, the moral of the story could be considered to be to not always believe what is presumed about futures, you are your own destiny. If Oedipus had not believed about killing his father and bedding his mother, he never would have left the place he grew up and all would have been genuine. And in Antigone, the moral could be to always stand up for what you believe no matter what it costs you. All stories like this can have a moral, but the moral varies from reader to reader is some cases depending on what they take from the story they read. -Tia R.

Anonymous said...

The power of the story of Job lies in its quality as a fable. Job, though suffering the loss of everything dear to him, refuses to curse God. He realized that everything he had, was in itself, a gift from God, thus able to be taken away. I guess, apart from teaching faith, the story is inspirational. It teaches us not to stop and question the fairness of our lives, but to continue moving forward.

The largest difference between the Christian portrayal of Job and an tragedy in the style of Aristotle is the role of the Gods. In the Greek dramas we have read, the Gods always punished the actors for a personality flaw of theirs. The gods were always predictable; the stories a sort of cause and effect piece.
But in Job, the protagonist has done nothing to incur the wrath of God. Even though he has lived a "blameless" life, he is still cursed from the heavens. Here, it seems, the Gods aren't so reasonable, or at least in a manner that is understandable to us humans.

Because of the lack of culpability on the part of Job, i don't believe that it qualifies as a tragedy, nor him as a tragic hero. The character of Job never changes, something that I believe Aristotle requires, but perseveres through his adversity.

Luke C.

Anonymous said...

Celine B.

You and I have opposite opinions on whether Job was a tragic hero. I believe he does have a flaw. Satan and people believe that Job is perfect because of his wealth and not in his belief in God. That is the whole reason for the test. Satan tries to prove that without his riches, he will disgrace God. Do you agree or not?
Molly M.

Anonymous said...

the reason that Job would be concidered a tragedy is because he had everything and was a faithful servant to God, but it was all taken away even though he was blameless. unlike with the Greek Tragedies Job hadn't done anything wrong.

it's almost the exact opposite in fact of Oedipus. A plague happens in Thebes because of the wrong that Oedipus had done, and he spends the rest of the play trying to figure out what that wrong was. Job on the other hand had everything taken away from he because he was a blameless man, and he spends the rest of the book claiming his innocence.

Job does have a lot of similarities to the tragedies that we have read. he goes through a reversal of fortune when his possessions are taken away in the 1st chapter, and when he is harmed physically in the 2nd chapter. he is a very pitiable character. who doesn't cringe for Job when they hear about the boils from head to toe. but he is missing some elements of a tragic hero, like a tragic flaw. but doesn't that make him even more of a tragic hero, because all of this stuff is happening to him and he hasn't done a thing wrong.

also unlike all of the other tragedies we have read, Job goes through a second reversal of fortune in chapter 42. this is when God restores him back to the positon he was at the very beginning of the book. this may count against him as a tragic hero, because he isn't so tragic anymore when he gets everything back.

all and all, i think Job would definately count as a tragic hero. the only thing that even comes close to making him less tragic is the ending. but personally i liked the happy ending, instead of the ending in Oedipus where he gouges his eyes out.

Abby E.

BBAXLHS said...

Paddy,

Do you think that the tragic circumstances come upon Job because he's arrogant? He seems to be respected among his peers, not loathed for his pride. I've always had the sense of admiration from his peers.

Anonymous said...

The significance of the Christian use of the tragic character in the the Book of Job is that it shows what people will often believe in contrast with what God's character is. The book is used to show the difference between mercy and justice and also that God has the power. In Job 42:7-8, the Lord says that he is "...angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right..." showing directly that just because a person has suffering, they did not necesarily do anything wrong (it does not say, however, that suffering is never the result of misdeeds). The fall of a weathy, blameless, God fearing man does fall into the category of tragedy but not Aristotelian tragedy. I do not think that blamelessness counts as a tragic flaw because a flaw as defined by merriam-webster is an imperfection or weakness. On that basis Job is not a tragic hero as Aristotle described tragic heros or Sophocles portrayed tragic heros. The reason he is still a tragic hero is that dispite his lack of a tragic flaw, Job has reversals in fortune.

Lindsey A.

Anonymous said...

When I read the Book of Job, I considedered Job a tragic hero because of the devestating trials he went through for doing the wrong of leading a perfect life. Not only did Job suffer the loss of his three sons, Satan also inflicted Job himself with physical pain with the Lords consent, "So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown." (ch.2:7)
In my mind Job is a tragic hero, yet according to Aristotle, he wouldn't have been. When delving into the plot line, the reversals from good to bad and bad to good weren't truly caused by the tragedy, but then, what would the tragedy be? Would being "Perfect and upright, and one that feared God", (ch.1:1) be considedered a flaw. Personally, I cannot comphrend how being too good would be a flaw. But for this story how could it not be, when that is what caused Satan to want to test him, and for God to allow it. If Job had not been perfect, and had made mistakes in his life, would Satan have felt tempted to test him in from of God? No, what victory to God would have Satan had if Job had been openly flawed?
According to Aristotle, the perfect plot should end and start all with in one day. Though the story of Job lasts for weeks, some chapters included a week just for mourning, "So they sat down with him upon the ground seven days and none spake a word unto him: for they say that his grief was very great." (Ch2:13)
This story is a great example for Christian integrity. Not only was Job a God fearing mad, "One that feared God, and eschewed evil" (ch.1:1), but he never once turned his back or blamed and accused the Lord of any wrong doing. The story also shows how men who serve the Lord will be rewarded in the end; though that end does not only include physical life on Earth, but what comes afterward.
Annie Y

Anonymous said...

I don't really think that Aristotle woule really see Job as a tragic hero. The greatest flaw that he may have is that he is a goody-two-shoes. Nobody likes those kinds of people. Here's a question: Does God let Job go through a living hell to shape him up?

--Paddy M.

Anonymous said...

The significance of the tragic character in Job is that no matter how much Job lost or suffered as result of Satan's and God's tests, he refuses to denounce God. By the end of the Book, Job is rewarded for his persistance of faith. It is a common Christian doctrine that when one overcomes God's tests, he or she will be rewarded. The story of Job is meant to portray this idea.
The differences between the story in the Book of Job and the Greek tragedies we have been reading is that the end of Job is much more pleasant. In Job 42:10-42:17, Job's rewards for his faith are detailed. "The Lord restrored the fortunes of Job when he prayed for his friends, and the Lord increased all that Job had twofold." (Job 42:10) In both Oedipus and Antigone, the protagonists were not rewarded by the Gods after they learned the error of their ways. In fact the Gods stripped them of family and title so that they would fall from their previous positions of prosperity. Thus, the character of Job doesn't fit the expectation of what Sophocles and Aristotle believed should be in a tragic story.
There is a similarity, however, between the Book of Job and Sophocles's and Aristotle's opinions of tragedy, in the fact that Job had to fall from prosperity in order to learn. Job was "the greatest of all the men of the east (Job 1:3)," until he lost his family, livestock, and health.
Job is not a tragic hero by Aristotelian standards. He is an extraordinary character, better than the average person, but he has no tragic flaw. He is "blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil (Job 1:1)." The reason why he falls from his place as the greatest man in the East is because the devil challenges God that because God has granted Job so much good fortune, if Job was to lose his posessions and his health, he would no longer praise God. Thus, God allows the devil to test Job to see if he is truly a righteous man. Job proves his worth and is rewarded by God for his perseverance. Job's reward is another aspect that disqualifies him from being an Aristotelian tragic hero; he's not only devoid of a tragic flaw, he is eventually returned to his place as the greatest man in the east. (Neither Oedipus nor Creon were granted any reward as a result of their repentance.)
----Aislinn H.

Anonymous said...

Job lived a perfect, prosperous life and even though he wasn't of noble birth(a constant theme in Aristotalian tragedies) he sure lived like one. Not only was his life perfect but so was his faith. He was steadfast and loyal to his faith as Oedipus was to Thebes. This virtuitous character is essential to tragidies.
Up to this point the story follows the course of a greek tragedy. The tragic flaw is his perfection. That is, it would be if the ending didn't turn out the way it did. His perfect faith ended up giving him more than he had before Satan's test. So even though he went through such devastating events he came out even more prosperous.This is a facter very uncharacteristic of Greek tragedies. Oedipus the King ended with Oedipus' damnation, humiliation, and-let's not forget-blindness, insanely self-perpretated. This is very different from Job ending up with greater prosperity, greater happines, and his sanity.

-Giovanna M.

Anonymous said...

Paddy M.

i think that God lets satan put Job through hell to shapen Satan up, not Job. God was trying to show to satan the extent to which some people are devoted to him. and the only way to do that is to pick someone who was blameless (i think perfect isn't the right word because it also says in Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." kind of a tangent, but that's my opinion). if God had been trying to teach Job a lesson than he wouldn't have restored Job to his former position at the end of the book. I think that the point of Job, the reason that it is used as an example by christian, is because it shows that God ultimately has the power and no one else ( see chapters 38-41 what the Lord says to Job.)

Abby E.

Anonymous said...

Abby,

I think you're right about who was being "taught" here. Job certainly has to continue to prove his faithfulness to God, and by so doing, has his beliefs confirmed, but Satan is being taught who's more powerful and that truly faithful people may actually have power over him (i.e. he is wasting his time with people like Job).

Mr. B

Anonymous said...

Molly,
Yes, Job suffers many hardships through out the story. But unlike the previous tragedies we have studied, Job triumphs (as well as God). All in all the story ends well, and brings a great lesson with it.
The point of the story was that Satan was wrong, and Job couldn't be tempted. Isn't that a good thing? How is that a tragedy?

Anonymous said...

Molly,
Yes, Job suffers many hardships through out the story. But unlike the previous tragedies we have studied, Job triumphs (as well as God). All in all the story ends well, and brings a great lesson with it.
The point of the story was that Satan was wrong, and Job couldn't be tempted. Isn't that a good thing? How is that a tragedy?
Annie Y

Anonymous said...

I would first like to restate that "perfection is a flaw" is an oxymoron. By definition, a flaw is an imperfection or weakness. How do you have an imperfect perfect person? The above comments can be addressed to anyone who said that perfection was a flaw. I also thought the idea of teaching satan (Abby) and the results of faith (Celine) were good ideas.

Lindsey A.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Lindsey that a being perfect can in no way constitute a flaw. I do also believe that God was trying to teach Satan that he was wrong about Job.
I didn't realize the similarity that Miss. H pointed out that what happened to Job was out of his control, like what happened to Oedipus.
However, I still do not think that the story of Job could be defined as an Aristotelian tragedy.
-----Aislinn H.